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	<title>《乐观，但不至于这么乐观·之一·文化发动机：市场交易 vs 互惠交易》的评论</title>
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	<description>A Salon for Heads, No Sofa for Ass</description>
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		<title>作者：cenyone</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-735899</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cenyone]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2020 15:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-735899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[市场的效率更高啊]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>市场的效率更高啊</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：辉格</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-437608</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[辉格]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2014 09:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-437608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[20万年是一般认为的现代智人这个物种确立的时间。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>20万年是一般认为的现代智人这个物种确立的时间。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：zaeneas</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-436279</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zaeneas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2014 11:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-436279</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[里德利在第二章里提出的例子全都是5万年以近的，与该章标题不相符，而作为进化发动机和先行因素，至少需要20万年前的例子

请问20万年这个是如何计算得到的？]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>里德利在第二章里提出的例子全都是5万年以近的，与该章标题不相符，而作为进化发动机和先行因素，至少需要20万年前的例子</p>
<p>请问20万年这个是如何计算得到的？</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：没有名字</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-7284</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[没有名字]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-7284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[水平很高。。。。。我在这基本就是看客呀

2）在热兵器（且越来越热）时代，市场社会的武力会远远超出非市场社会，因而被后者打败的可能性较小，且越来越小。

没明白。。。。。。。要是以美国为例，市场制度越来越残，这种发展和它军力大小没什么关系啊]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>水平很高。。。。。我在这基本就是看客呀</p>
<p>2）在热兵器（且越来越热）时代，市场社会的武力会远远超出非市场社会，因而被后者打败的可能性较小，且越来越小。</p>
<p>没明白。。。。。。。要是以美国为例，市场制度越来越残，这种发展和它军力大小没什么关系啊</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：Ent</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-5821</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ent]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 08:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-5821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[说得好。严重赞同reciprocal exchange的重要意义。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>说得好。严重赞同reciprocal exchange的重要意义。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：辉格</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-5073</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[辉格]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 07:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-5073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[我只读过商务印书馆那个译本，感觉还不错 http://book.douban.com/subject/1274030/ ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>我只读过商务印书馆那个译本，感觉还不错 <a href="http://book.douban.com/subject/1274030/" rel="nofollow">http://book.douban.com/subject/1274030/</a> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：军各</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-5070</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[军各]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 03:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-5070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[辉总可否推荐一下《人口原理》好点的译本？]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>辉总可否推荐一下《人口原理》好点的译本？</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：辉格</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4896</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[辉格]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4896</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Daniel Dennett看来比我更不乐观，这是他在Freedom Evolves结语中的最后几段话：

Human freedom is younger than the species. Its most important features are only several thousand years old an eyeblink in evolutionary history but in that short time it has transformed the planet in ways that are as salient as such great biological transitions as the creation of an oxygen-rich atmosphere and the creation of multicellular life. Freedom had to evolve like every other feature of the biosphere, and it continues to evolve today. Freedom is real now, in some happy parts of the world, and those who love it love wisely, but it is far from inevitable, far from universal. If we understand better how freedom arose, we can do a better job of preserving it for the future, and protecting it from its many natural enemies. 

Our brains have been designed by natural selection, and all the products of our brains have likewise been designed, on a much swifter timescale, by physical processes in which no exemption from causality can be discerned. How, then, can our inventions, our decisions, our sins and triumphs, be any different from the beautiful but amoral webs of the spiders? How can an apple pie, lovingly created as a gift of reconciliation, be any different, morally, from an apple, &quot;cleverly&quot; designed by evolution to attract a frugivore to the bargain of spreading its seeds in return for some fructose? If these are treated as rhetorical questions only, implying that only a miracle could distingnish our creations from the blind, purposeless creations of material mechanisms, we will continue to spiral around the traditional problems of free will and determinism, in a vortex of uncomprehending mystery. Human acts acts of love and genius, as well as crimes and sins are just too far away from the happenings in atoms, swerving randomly or not, for us to be able to see at a glance how to put them into a single coherent framework. Philosophers for thousands of years have tried to bridge the gap with a bold stroke or two, either putting science in its place or putting human pride in its place or declaring (correctly, but unconvincingly) that the incompatibility is only apparent without going into the details. By trying to answer the questions, by sketching out the non-miraculous paths that can take us all the way from senseless atoms to freely chosen actions, we open up handholds for the imagination. 

The compatibility of free will and science (deterministic or indeterministic it makes no difference) is not as inconceivable as it once seemed. 

The topics investigated in this book are not just academic puzzles, delightful conceptual riddles to be solved or curious phenomena not yet captured by good theories. Many people see them to be matters of life and death, and that makes them matters of life and death, since people&#039;s fears tend to amplify the purported implications of the different analyses and distort the arguments, making them into blunt instruments of propaganda for good or ill. The emotional resonance of the word &quot;freedom,&quot; like that of the word &quot;God,&quot; guarantees a partisan audience, eager to pounce on any false move, any threat, any concession. The effect is that tradition usually has a free ride, or close to it. Doctrines that are endorsed by tradition should be left unexamined if at all possible, people are inclined to think, as a matter of tactical wisom, since it will only sur up a hornet s nest ffw5 quesuon them. And so traditional thinking lives on, largely unchallenged, and accretes a pearly coating of spurious invulnerability over the years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel Dennett看来比我更不乐观，这是他在Freedom Evolves结语中的最后几段话：</p>
<p>Human freedom is younger than the species. Its most important features are only several thousand years old an eyeblink in evolutionary history but in that short time it has transformed the planet in ways that are as salient as such great biological transitions as the creation of an oxygen-rich atmosphere and the creation of multicellular life. Freedom had to evolve like every other feature of the biosphere, and it continues to evolve today. Freedom is real now, in some happy parts of the world, and those who love it love wisely, but it is far from inevitable, far from universal. If we understand better how freedom arose, we can do a better job of preserving it for the future, and protecting it from its many natural enemies. </p>
<p>Our brains have been designed by natural selection, and all the products of our brains have likewise been designed, on a much swifter timescale, by physical processes in which no exemption from causality can be discerned. How, then, can our inventions, our decisions, our sins and triumphs, be any different from the beautiful but amoral webs of the spiders? How can an apple pie, lovingly created as a gift of reconciliation, be any different, morally, from an apple, &#8220;cleverly&#8221; designed by evolution to attract a frugivore to the bargain of spreading its seeds in return for some fructose? If these are treated as rhetorical questions only, implying that only a miracle could distingnish our creations from the blind, purposeless creations of material mechanisms, we will continue to spiral around the traditional problems of free will and determinism, in a vortex of uncomprehending mystery. Human acts acts of love and genius, as well as crimes and sins are just too far away from the happenings in atoms, swerving randomly or not, for us to be able to see at a glance how to put them into a single coherent framework. Philosophers for thousands of years have tried to bridge the gap with a bold stroke or two, either putting science in its place or putting human pride in its place or declaring (correctly, but unconvincingly) that the incompatibility is only apparent without going into the details. By trying to answer the questions, by sketching out the non-miraculous paths that can take us all the way from senseless atoms to freely chosen actions, we open up handholds for the imagination. </p>
<p>The compatibility of free will and science (deterministic or indeterministic it makes no difference) is not as inconceivable as it once seemed. </p>
<p>The topics investigated in this book are not just academic puzzles, delightful conceptual riddles to be solved or curious phenomena not yet captured by good theories. Many people see them to be matters of life and death, and that makes them matters of life and death, since people&#8217;s fears tend to amplify the purported implications of the different analyses and distort the arguments, making them into blunt instruments of propaganda for good or ill. The emotional resonance of the word &#8220;freedom,&#8221; like that of the word &#8220;God,&#8221; guarantees a partisan audience, eager to pounce on any false move, any threat, any concession. The effect is that tradition usually has a free ride, or close to it. Doctrines that are endorsed by tradition should be left unexamined if at all possible, people are inclined to think, as a matter of tactical wisom, since it will only sur up a hornet s nest ffw5 quesuon them. And so traditional thinking lives on, largely unchallenged, and accretes a pearly coating of spurious invulnerability over the years.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：蒋劲松</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4887</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[蒋劲松]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4887</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[是的，这个回答确实不严谨，内陆也是有盐矿的，但也是有特定区域的，嗯，猴子也确实有这样的行为，是把身体里代谢出来的盐，重新补回。（我也奇怪为什么不能体内循环），早期的内陆人类社会，我也认为必须离盐产地近。而要想分布广泛，没有盐的及时补给，也是不可能的。人类的扩张，必然伴随着盐的交易。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>是的，这个回答确实不严谨，内陆也是有盐矿的，但也是有特定区域的，嗯，猴子也确实有这样的行为，是把身体里代谢出来的盐，重新补回。（我也奇怪为什么不能体内循环），早期的内陆人类社会，我也认为必须离盐产地近。而要想分布广泛，没有盐的及时补给，也是不可能的。人类的扩张，必然伴随着盐的交易。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：辉格</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4886</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[辉格]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4886</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[是吗？这倒头回听说，不过我有点怀疑，没有大汗腺，皮肤毛发上能有多少盐分？]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>是吗？这倒头回听说，不过我有点怀疑，没有大汗腺，皮肤毛发上能有多少盐分？</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：不停咳嗽</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4885</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[不停咳嗽]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4885</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[猴子这种靠杂食偏植食的动物，可以从对方身上采集盐粒补充盐分（只是我们一般误解为捉虱子吃）。人类早期应该也是如此的。而“食盐交易中，因为靠海的部落，鱼类食物不稳定，而内陆的人，获取食盐很难”我觉得也有问题。内陆也有岩盐，池盐，而且取用比海盐简单的多。事实上一些早期内陆文明就是围绕着天然盐场发展的。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>猴子这种靠杂食偏植食的动物，可以从对方身上采集盐粒补充盐分（只是我们一般误解为捉虱子吃）。人类早期应该也是如此的。而“食盐交易中，因为靠海的部落，鱼类食物不稳定，而内陆的人，获取食盐很难”我觉得也有问题。内陆也有岩盐，池盐，而且取用比海盐简单的多。事实上一些早期内陆文明就是围绕着天然盐场发展的。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：蒋劲松</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4883</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[蒋劲松]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4883</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[这个回复有些问题，人的需盐量是比其他哺乳动物大的，也就是说，人类的的扩展，必须要考虑到盐的补给。盐分的需要对人类来说，其重要性不亚于水源，但是因为量少，所以很容易就被忽视。食物的获得，和地区无关，但盐的获得，只有特定的地区才有，所以盐的交易应该非常早，甚至可能早于人类语言文字记载时期]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>这个回复有些问题，人的需盐量是比其他哺乳动物大的，也就是说，人类的的扩展，必须要考虑到盐的补给。盐分的需要对人类来说，其重要性不亚于水源，但是因为量少，所以很容易就被忽视。食物的获得，和地区无关，但盐的获得，只有特定的地区才有，所以盐的交易应该非常早，甚至可能早于人类语言文字记载时期</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：蒋劲松</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4882</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[蒋劲松]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4882</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[食草的哺乳动物必然是要额外补充盐分的，方式不清楚，要详细的查查资料。人（应该包括一些近亲）和其他哺乳动物不一样，不仅需要维持哺乳动物的生理盐度，而且人的盐代谢也比较快，和人发达的神经系统有关（这个我看过相关的文章），上面的解释中有一些问题，那就是同样是哺乳动物，虽然生理盐度相同，但是需盐量也是不一样的。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>食草的哺乳动物必然是要额外补充盐分的，方式不清楚，要详细的查查资料。人（应该包括一些近亲）和其他哺乳动物不一样，不仅需要维持哺乳动物的生理盐度，而且人的盐代谢也比较快，和人发达的神经系统有关（这个我看过相关的文章），上面的解释中有一些问题，那就是同样是哺乳动物，虽然生理盐度相同，但是需盐量也是不一样的。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：蒋劲松</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4881</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[蒋劲松]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4881</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[食物含盐量是不同的，哺乳动物的生理盐度很高0、9%，也就是100克体液中0.9克盐，植物中几乎不含盐，而人类需盐量是很大的，这和人类的发达神经系统有关。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>食物含盐量是不同的，哺乳动物的生理盐度很高0、9%，也就是100克体液中0.9克盐，植物中几乎不含盐，而人类需盐量是很大的，这和人类的发达神经系统有关。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：辉格</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4880</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[辉格]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4880</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[哺乳动物有多少直接吃盐的？特别是食肉的和杂食的？除了羊科，好像没听说过]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>哺乳动物有多少直接吃盐的？特别是食肉的和杂食的？除了羊科，好像没听说过</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：辉格</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4879</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[辉格]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4879</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[动荡倒不必，分裂和多样化是必须的，最怕大一统。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>动荡倒不必，分裂和多样化是必须的，最怕大一统。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：辉格</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4878</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[辉格]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[我倒没这么悲观，理由是：市场制度一旦出现，1）其总体上的表现会很有说服力，所以只要存在参照物，至少在生死关头，它会得到其成员的普遍支持的，2）在热兵器（且越来越热）时代，市场社会的武力会远远超出非市场社会，因而被后者打败的可能性较小，且越来越小。

基于这两点，只要市场制度香火不绝，就不必太担心，而香火不绝的条件是全球社会足够庞大和多样化，可以确保其中总有几个可以接过香火，真正的危险在于同质化，同质化之后，离开了参照物，就可能发生逐步退化，最后崩溃湮灭。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>我倒没这么悲观，理由是：市场制度一旦出现，1）其总体上的表现会很有说服力，所以只要存在参照物，至少在生死关头，它会得到其成员的普遍支持的，2）在热兵器（且越来越热）时代，市场社会的武力会远远超出非市场社会，因而被后者打败的可能性较小，且越来越小。</p>
<p>基于这两点，只要市场制度香火不绝，就不必太担心，而香火不绝的条件是全球社会足够庞大和多样化，可以确保其中总有几个可以接过香火，真正的危险在于同质化，同质化之后，离开了参照物，就可能发生逐步退化，最后崩溃湮灭。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：bear</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4873</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bear]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[3总的歪论出处是哪儿？
再歪一点：在人口拥挤的情况下，不止市场制度，任何制度都会因为移情带来的不适应人群暴涨而倒塌。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>3总的歪论出处是哪儿？<br />
再歪一点：在人口拥挤的情况下，不止市场制度，任何制度都会因为移情带来的不适应人群暴涨而倒塌。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：zhang3</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4872</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zhang3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[原理上我补充一下：当有大量的人口流动的时候，大概只能依赖市场制度维持不同个人和集体之间的相互关系。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>原理上我补充一下：当有大量的人口流动的时候，大概只能依赖市场制度维持不同个人和集体之间的相互关系。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>作者：zhang3</title>
		<link>https://headsalon.org/archives/3425.html#comment-4871</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zhang3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headsalon.org/?p=3425#comment-4871</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[突然想起来之前的一个歪论，这里补充发挥一下，大规模的社会动荡和迁移应该会有利于市场制度的产生和维持，一旦这种格局稳定下来几十年上百年，市场制度就开始腐化堕落，不管这个时期是什么社会制度。]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>突然想起来之前的一个歪论，这里补充发挥一下，大规模的社会动荡和迁移应该会有利于市场制度的产生和维持，一旦这种格局稳定下来几十年上百年，市场制度就开始腐化堕落，不管这个时期是什么社会制度。</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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